Academia and Children: Making it Work

A virtual conversation of particular interest to women considering having children and going on the academic job market

Speaker:

Bonnie Youngs, Ph.D. in French

Lecturer in French, Department of Modern Languages, Carnegie Mellon University.

Setting: PennMOO

Date: November 2, 1998

You stand on a campus green, near an odd white sculpture looking suspiciously like a giant broken button. This is the heart and soul and center of PennMOO, our neo-virtual, real-time, alternative community, campus and cosmos here at the University of Pennsylvania.

Bonnie, Julie V., and Guest are here.

Julie V. says, "Let's get started. I'm Julie Vick from Career Services and I'm pleased that so many people are interested in this topic and this method of communication. Our 'speaker' is Bonnie Youngs."

Bonnie says, "Hello"

Julie V. says, "Bonnie, would you start with your background and talk about your experience as a mother and an academic?"

Bonnie says, "Well, there's a brief question"

Bonnie smiles

Mary H crawls out from under the Button and into the real world.

Jay says, "And here is Mary!"

Bonnie says, "Okay, I teach full-time as faculty in the Modern Languages department at Carnegie Mellon University. When I left Penn, I had Catharine, she was 1 year old when I started. Hello, Mary."

Bonnie says, "Then I had Thomas in 1995, who died, then Daniel, in 1996."

Julie V. says, "Bonnie, I am sorry about Thomas. I did not know that."

Bonnie says, "Thank you, he died when he was born, and the faculty was very supportive."

Bonnie says, "So, ever since my career began, I've had to juggle the trials and joys of motherhood and careered. Are there any specific questions? or another train of thought I can follow for you?"

Guest says, "Do you have full-time help?"

Bonnie says, "I don't have full-time help, just a husband."

Cobalt Guest says, "May I ask - did you start your family after your doctoral studies were finished? "

Bonnie says, "I had Catharine in 1993, so I was finishing my dissertation, moved to Pittsburgh from Philly, and began the full-time job."

Bonnie says, "Tom elected to stay home with her, since he had quit his job in Philly and did 6 months telecommuting"

Bonnie says, "We also didn't trust finding day-care in a hurry, and she was our first... so we were nervous."

Bonnie says, "I was told not to start a family while in grad studies, that it made it harder to get a job, I don't know if that's true."

Orange Guest says, "What have you found to be the biggest challenges involved in combining academia with being a mother?"

Bonnie says, "The biggest challenges?"

Bonnie shrugs

Blue Guest arrives in a flash.

Bonnie says, "Always, time. I work three days per week, now, and like in grad school, do a lot of work at home after the kids go to bed."

Cobalt Guest says, "How do you juggle time with little children and demands of the office?"

Cobalt Guest says, "Are you working part-time then? "

Bonnie says, "Happily, "face time" doesn't really count like it does in the corporate world, so I leave when I have to. As long as I 'm at meetings, and do my job, it doesn't really matter how many hours I'm in the office."

Bonnie says, "Hello Blue Guest."

Bonnie says, "No, I have a full-time position, but was able, after five years, to finagle, a three day per week schedule while Daniel is still young."

Guest says, "Have you found that people don't take you as seriously now that you have a family?"

Bonnie says, "There are some faculty members who don't understand what having a child is like, that leaving on time to pick up from school is imperative, that being up all night while a kid throws up is real life."

Orange Guest says, "I'm curious what advice you might have for someone trying to "get serious" about writing a dissertation with a one and a half year old.

Bonnie says, "1.5 years old? whoa, try to make a schedule for yourself. Trying to fit in around naptime probably won't work too well."

Bonnie says, "Also, I found that having someone come in and watch the kids while I work in the computer room upstairs, even if it's 2 hours at a time, makes all the difference."

Bonnie says, "That way, I don't feel guilty about not working, or about not spending time with the kids."

Cobalt Guest says, "I remember my parents hiring a sitter to watch us while they worked at home."

Orange Guest says, "Did you find that your style of working changed with the introduction of kids into your life -- i.e., that you have to learn to be able to be productive in those minutes snatched here and there?"

Bonnie says, "Oh yes!!!! Doing things quickly has become the most important thing. For now, doing the most necessary things first is the priority. I don't do much ahead of time."

Bonnie says, "Exactly, you feel you have control, especially over the younger ones, and don't have to transport anyone, and all their things are there for them."

Guest says, "How much time do you get to see your husband (alone) every day?

I'm concerned about balancing marriage with motherhood and work."

Bonnie says, "husband? and his name is??? "

Bonnie says, "we spend time after 7:30 when the kids go to bed. But that's like all married couples with kids who work. Of course, I'm usually grading...."

Cobalt Guest says, "Were you able to teach through most of your pregnanc(ies)?"

Bonnie says, "I "arranged" it so that my kids were born in August, and July. Thomas was born in March, earlier than anticipated, but we made arrangements for me to take the rest of the spring semester off."

Bonnie says, "The thing in looking for a job, is that I work in a young department, and they understand, mostly everyone has kids, and young ones, so that many issues that would be taboo in the corporate world are manageable in academia."

Bonnie says, "Have I answered the questions so far? any follow-up? I'm trying to keep up."

Bonnie smiles

Cobalt Guest says, "looks good to me!"

Julie V. says, "You're doing great, Bonnie!"

Orange Guest says, "I'm not all that familiar with the post of lecturer as opposed to professor, and I'm curious what other sorts of "non-fast-track" academic posts there are out there? All I ever hear about are the trials and tribulations of tenure track, which I'd like to avoid while I'm starting a family."

Bonnie says, "At CMU we have a lecturer track, whose promotion is based on teaching and course development, and not on publishing X number of articles per year."

Bonnie says, "It's also renewable, not based on tenure, so I moved the family for the first three year position, and was then renewed for three years, and am currently waiting for news of a promotion to senior lecturer."

Orange Guest says, "Do many universities have lecturer tracks? Is that something you inquired about while interviewing or would that have "looked badly"?"

Bonnie says, "I was interviewed for the lecturer track specifically, since I identified myself as a teacher, then researcher. My research is classroom based, so the job is logical."

Cobalt Guest says, "Do you still conduct research on the side?"

Bonnie looks shocked

Cobalt Guest says, "?"

Bonnie says, "Research on the side! Just kidding, our research is tied up in the students, and couldn't be done without working in the classroom."

Bonnie smiles

Cobalt Guest says, "I ask b/c I'd really like to continue research, but I "want it all" - tenure and family..."

Bonnie says, "As for lecturer track, it's hard to do research, it mostly involves courseware development, my specialty is technology."

Bonnie says, "Lecturers don't have the pressure and let's face it, if I were tenure track, I'd be making more money and have fewer courses; right now my teaching load is 7 per year; with the promotion, it'll go down to 6 per year."

Orange Guest says, "Are most lecturers part time?"

Bonnie says, "But I'm still expected to present at major conferences, and chair committees, even as a junior faculty member."

Guest says, "How did you find out about the lecturer position? Do you know any other major universities that have this track? Is it comparable to a teaching position at a small liberal arts college?"

Bonnie says, "It was published in the chronicles and the MLA Job Listings."

Bonnie says, "The name is a misnomer because we aren't lecturers in the sense of adjuncts. We are full-time, on faculty, go to faculty meetings, etc, it's just not the same focus as tenure track."

Cobalt Guest says, "Have you ever had to do a long-distance relationship as part of your academic career?"

Bonnie says, "No, we moved to Pittsburgh and we've been here throughout."

Julie V. says, "Bonnie, can you talk about what it was like to be interviewing for jobs when you had an infant?"

Bonnie says, "Sure. Catharine was three months old when I had to come to Pittsburgh for the day. I was nursing her exclusively and had to make arrangements to leave milk with Tom and then pump while at the interview during the whole day, 6 am to 8 pm."

Bonnie says, "They were both very happy to see me when I got home!"

Bonnie smiles

Orange Guest says, "I myself am trying to "plan" when I should have child #2 -- my advisor would like to see me on the job market next fall -- I'm wondering what the implications of being visibly pregnant while doing so will be for me?"

Bonnie says, "The department was very receptive to providing space for me."

Bonnie says, "As for planning, it's hard. Life comes when it does. They may ask what arrangements you'll make (you'd interview in fall, have the baby in spring, then start work in the fall), but questions along those lines are not legal."

Bonnie says, "My colleague, in the office with me, thinks it might be problematic to be "very" pregnant, especially if it's an older department."

Blue Guest says, "What are your thoughts about being on the tenure track while starting a family?"

Bonnie says, "The advantages to this type of career is that since we most often have private offices, I was able to continue pumping for Daniel (Tom kept him, I went back to work after 5 weeks) and I used a double breast pump (way cool!) twice during the fall semester and once during the spring (per day), and was able to nurse him for more than two years."

Cobalt Guest says, "That's great!"

Bonnie says, "I think that the job is very taxing, no matter what the track. You have to produce, at any level, and with student evaluations of your courses, you always have to be "on"."

Guest says, "How do you feel about adjuncting for a few years while the children are young? Do you think that we (Ph.D's in general) undermine ourselves by doing that?"

Cobalt Guest says, "How did you manage childcare (beyond your husband's telecommuting for 6 months?"

Bonnie says, "I think two things: 1. that depending on your field, take whatever job you can get and get experience. I have been on search committees and we never looked down on adjuncts. 2. getting a full-time position is much less taxing, since you are in a stable place and don't have to worry about where the next money is coming."

Bonnie says, "Catharine went to Kindergarten in 1995, full day, and Daniel stayed with a neighbor three days per week, with her one year, when he was one."

Bonnie says, "Now, Catharine is in first grade, she stays in an after school program three days per week, Daniel is with our neighbor two days per week, and we moved him into the CMU daycare two days per week."

Guest says, "How do you keep from completely stressing out?"

Bonnie says, "The beauty too of this type of job is that you can somewhat arrange your own schedule. Work 3 days per week, only mornings, or until early afternoon..."

Bonnie says, "Stress is my best friend. I find time to go to T'ai chi, or walk every day (when I can), maintain friendships..."

Bonnie says, "It's very hard to feel that you aren't doing enough at your job, not publishing enough, not writing enough great syllabi, not being creative enough, but I've also decided that my children, while they're young, are my first priority. So I've managed my payraises, and hopefully my promotion, but hopefully not to the detriment of the kids' mental health."

Bonnie takes a deep breath

Bonnie says, "It's a good thing I learned how to type!"

Lemon Guest arrives in a flash.

Cobalt Guest says, "Would you do anything differently if you could?"

Julie V. says, "Bonnie, you are doing wonderfully!"

Bonnie says, "I also leave one day per week for doctor's visits, etc, since

our department never teaches on Thursdays."

Bonnie says, "Different?"

Bonnie says, "Let's see..."

Cobalt Guest says, "20/20 hindsight..."

Bonnie says, "No, I don't think so. I really fell into this great job, and although it gets on my nerves (don't tell my boss), it's been a great intro to the work force."

Bonnie says, "I don't plan on having any more kids though. Tom and I find that we don't have time for both the kids now, and with piano lessons, violin lessons, working on the house, having a marriage, getting promoted, it's hard enough now to manage."

Cobalt Guest says, "May I ask (since I'm sending out job applications right now), how many jobs did you apply to?"

Bonnie says, "Hello Lemon guest."

Orange Guest says, "Can you see any dangers to extending out the dissertation-writing stage longer than the usual 2 years or so in order to have a family before having to deal with all those external job pressures?"

Bonnie says, "I got seven interviews, and only got turned down for one, which was literature based, and not me."

Mary H. says, "And what's interesting about this job, with its emphasis on technology, is that it's also preparing you to move in other directions, should you ever find that appealing. I am wondering, though, whether it's mainly women who hold the lecturer positions."

Julie V. says, "Bonnie, you sound as if you really have things worked out well. I know lots of students -- male and female --feel nervous about children and academia. Is there anything from your experience or the experience of friends'

that you think is really important to do or to know?"

Bonnie says, "The dissertation really can drag out long... I'd get it out my hair, as it was, I didn't finish until Dec 94, one year after I got the job. It was great to focus on the job and not the diss after so long. Besides we have a time limit, right, on the diss?"

Bonnie says, "We have both men and women in the lecturer positions."

Cobalt Guest says, "Do you have colleagues who are tenure-track and actively building their families?"

Bonnie says, "Let's see, we have tenure people who have young children, and one woman trying to get pregnant."

Bonnie says, "Julie asked really important to do or to know? I'd say, know what your requirements are."

Bonnie says, "It sounds really "zen" or something, but like I said, while my children are young (Daniel is only two)."

Bonnie says, "I manage to be home with him one week day, last year it was two weekdays."

Bonnie says, "This year I took Tuesdays for myself and my research, since I went bonkers last year. I feel guilty, but those 6 hours are a boon to me, and he gets to play with his friends, so I try to reassure myself."

Cobalt Guest says, "DO the tenure-track family people seem to make reasonable progress through the tenure process?"

Bonnie says, "So the important thing for me is to not realize that your kids have grown up and you missed it. (Sounds like our mothers, doesn't it?)"

Bonnie says, "Yes, I think they do make progress. Our process for tenure counts publications, and then student evaluations (but their influence is minimal)."

Guest says, "I'm afraid I won't be able to do it all...finish the diss., find a job, and still keep my marriage and child as the top priority. Do you ever regret going full force with career?"

Bonnie says, "No, over the summers I go crazy and think I would be nuts staying home all the time."

Bonnie says, "This type of job is manageable."

Cobalt Guest says, "Do you teach at all during the summers?"

Bonnie says, "And it really gets you out of the house."

Orange Guest says, "I have the same sentiments as the previous guest -- sometimes I consider dropping down to the secondary school level to accommodate all the demands"

Bonnie says, "Last summer I taught five summer classes in six weeks."

Bonnie says, "NO."

Bonnie says, "Don't go down unless you want to."

Cobalt Guest says, "I sometimes think about teaching part-time and living off my not-yet husband's salary"

Bonnie says, "I work extensively with district teachers, helping them understand how to use technology to teach foreign language;"

Bonnie says, "they have 150-200 students per year!"

Bonnie says, "They don't have the flexibility we do, they have to be there five days per week, they don't have travel monies, have to beg for equipment..."

Orange Guest says, "How many students do you have per year and are any of your courses "doubles"?"

Bonnie says, "Unless it's a rich district, it might not be the right solution. Besides, you have to be certified to teach at the K-12 level, more school!"

Bonnie says, "Teaching part-time is cool, it gives you a chance to see what's out there."

Guest says, "So you believe that it is actually easier to teach at the college-level in a faculty position. Do you think things have worked out well for you because you were honest with your dept. from the beginning? "

Bonnie says, "Right now I have three courses, none are double preps, but it does happen, and I have 43 students this semester."

Orange Guest says, "I'm not sure I understand the difference b/t part-timers and adjuncts"

Bonnie says, "That might be true, they knew who I was and that I had kids. But the first year was hard, and it's a good thing Tom was home, because sometimes I put in twelve hour days."

Bonnie says, "I'd say part-time and adjuncts are the same thing."

Bonnie says, "The department also gave Catharine a birthday party on my first day of work, so I knew they were cool."

Bonnie says, "This department, again, is a young one, and they are supportive of families. We've had infants, our most recent newborn in the department, at last week's faculty meeting."

Blue Guest says, "What advice would you give to someone who is about to graduate, hopes to get pregnant soon? I'd like to get a full-time job, at a university, but I'm not sure whether to try the tenure track, or look for an adjunct position (especially since I don't know when I will get pregnant!)"

Bonnie says, "I'm thirsty, but haven't said a thing!"

Bonnie says, "My advice is to look for a job that fits you."

Bonnie says, "There are so many people who are miserable in academia, I've seen it and it s----s."

Mary H. says, "but if you're looking at adjuncting, make sure you realize how low the pay often is. "

Bonnie says, "You have to work with them, and they're no fun! So find the job that is right for you, content wise, location wise, and pay wise (if you have the option), and yes, adjuncts often get paid about $2500 per course, not a lot."

Bonnie says, "Also for adjuncting, you have to take the schedule they offer you, you have no options, and frequently it."

Julie V. says, "It's 3:50 p.m. and Bonnie agreed to participate from 3-4 so if anyone hasn't asked a question yet or if there is a topic that needs to be covered and hasn't been, this is the time to 'speak' up."

Bonnie says, "Yup, gotta go get the kids."

Bonnie smiles

Bonnie says, "Did someone say they didn't understand something?"

Orange Guest says, "if it was me on adjuncts vs/ part timers, you answered the question."

Guest says, "Does Carnegie Mellon have the lecturer position in all fields?"

Bonnie says, "Yes, we have lecturers all over the university."

Cobalt Guest says, "What are some important requirements in a husband when your juggling motherhood and academia? :)"

Bonnie says, "Husbands, well, mine is great, he stayed home for four years to help with childcare, he wouldn't trade the time with them and he misses them now."

Bonnie says, "Please try to remember that you guide your own amount of stress. If you like your job, as I do, then management issues are secondary (although any dinner ideas for tonight will be welcomed..."

Cobalt Guest says, "management issues??"

Bonnie says, "management issues: who does the laundry, who cooks dinner, who picks up the kids, who stays home when they're sick, ..."

Orange Guest says, "Are lecturer positions a recent development within universities?"

Bonnie says, "Lecturer positions are a response to not wanting to keep tenure track people; they are sometimes seen as dead weight, and administrations think that people with contracts will produce more readily, or more consistently."

Bonnie says, "also for husbands, make sure they really want to have kids, or the whole onus will be on you!"

Guest says, "do you feel that it is necessary for at least one parent to be home during those early years? I'm starting to believe that's true and I'm not sure how to work out who will be the primary caregiver in the years to come."

Cobalt Guest says, "Yes!"

Bonnie says, "I do believe that the first year is really important, and I wouldn't have wanted to miss it."

Bonnie says, "I think even as Daniel is two, that the first two years, if you can manage to be there for nursing, or just one on one, that it's great."

Bonnie says, "an alternative is one on one daycare, where they get lots of hugs."

Bonnie says, "Dads can be primary caregivers too, don't forget that. They have great pumps out there now."

Bonnie says, "Medela brand."

Guest says, "Medela's the best...thanks for all your help."

Blue Guest says, "thanks - this was helpful!"

Cobalt Guest says, "Thank you so much!"

Orange Guest says, "Thanks for all your advice/help. One last thing -- your dissertation itself was on teaching? I wonder if a non-teaching based dissertation would also lead to a career as a lecturer? Is the only requirement a love of teaching?"

Bonnie says, "My diss was based on the use of a computer program and its influence on the second language acquisition/language skills of the students. Probably since CMU is tech and I am a teacher, it was a good match."

Julie V. says, "I have 4 p.m. and know Bonnie has time constraints. Bonnie, thanks so much. This has been very interesting and helpful."

Bonnie says, "I'm glad you all came, and thanks for the questions. Please contact me if you have any further questions, queries, etc, I'd be glad to help."

Julie V. says, "Thank you all for participating."

Cobalt Guest says, "Thank you and good-bye!"

Bonnie says, "Bye now!"

Bonnie waves

Jay waves

Guest says, "two moms wave"

Mary H. says, "thank you, Bonnie, and Jay, who handled the technical part."

Orange Guest has disconnected.

Julie V. says, "I don't know how to wave but I'll say goodbye and, Jay, thanks so much for your part in this."

Bonnie says, "thanks, Jay."

Guest goes home.

Jay says, "My pleasure! Thanks for being here!"