Thinking Outside the Box – Unexpected Careers for Science and Engineering Ph.D.'s
Wednesday, December 13, 2006

Speakers

• Mike Keeley, Senior Associate, McKinsey and Company, PhD Cell and Molecular Biology (Penn)
• William A. Schew, Senior Technical Director, O’Brian & Gere (Eco-Sciences), PhD Biology (Penn)
• Darryl Williams, Executive Director, iPRAXIS, Inc, PhD Chemical Engineering ( U. of Maryland) and former CHOP Postdoc

 

Background

Mike Keeley:

Mike had thoughts about becoming a scientist while doing his undergraduate degree in Biology at Bucknell University. However, while working as an undergraduate summer intern at UPenn, he began to recognize the importance of moving from bench scientist to science management. After graduation, Mike decided to apply to MD/PhD Programs and he was accepted to Penn. However, about 6 months into the program, he started to think about where his future was going. If he were going to take advantage of his MD degree, he would have to become a practicing MD, and go through a residency, internship, etc. Did he even really want to be a doctor? The answer was “No.” He decided to transfer into the PhD program. This was a difficult move because he knew that he was giving up the “Golden Ticket,” but he felt that he was making the right decision. Mike had the wonderful opportunity to get his MA in Philosophy of Science at the University of London through a UK exchange program. This experience tied into his cognitive neuroscience work and broadened his views. He realized that many people were leaving the Master’s program and going into consulting or science management. When he came back to Penn, he thought consulting might also be a path for him. While writing his PhD Thesis, Mike began gaining leadership and business skills to prepare him for consulting. He obtained leadership positions in GAPSA, Biomedical Graduate Students Association (BGSA), and the Penn Biotech Group (PBG). Mike graduated in 2005, and because of his acquired skills, found himself qualified to work for McKinsey and Co.

 

Darryl Williams:

In September of 2006, Darryl finished his postdoc in pediatric cardiology research at CHOP. However, research science was not his only interest. Growing up, he had also thought about getting an MD, and had interests in business and management. Life intervened while he was doing his postdoc – his father was suddenly diagnosed with colon cancer, and Darryl was forced to reevaluate his career path. He decided to use his background in science and interest in business to create a non-profit organization that would give back to the underserved community called the LifeModem Foundation. In addition to founding LifeModem, Darryl is also the executive director of iPRAXIS, a nonprofit that brings the resources of the knowledge-based community to teachers and students (K-12) at inner-city schools to enhance the curriculum and create teachable segments, particularly in the area of science. One initiative, Project Inspire, brings Penn students into the classroom. The hope is to engage K-12 students by showing them an actual scientist, making science a more accessible and possible career. iPRAXIS also creates entrepreneurship opportunities, particularly for minorities, to help them navigate the process of starting their own business. Darryl believes that scientists have a responsibility to bring their knowledge to the public, especially to the younger generation.

 

William “Bill” Schew:

Bill, on the other hand, had no aspirations for Med School; he was a biologist, well on his way to a career in Academia. He obtained his MA in biology, and his PhD and postdoc in evolutionary physiology, a subject that does not translate well to the real world. He had started teaching as an Assistant Professor. However, sometimes life gets in the way – he had two children and got divorced in 1997. He realized that he needed a career with higher salary, but he needed to stay local. He wanted to find a career where he could use his degree. He remembered a part-time job in consulting he had had while still a graduate student, and knew that it had paid well. Bill initially applied for a job as a biostatistician at an environmental consulting firm. During the interview, he was asked several questions about his knowledge of business, and he had to admit that he knew nothing. However, he soon realized how much a PhD degree weighs in the business world, when they called him up the next day and hired him. As a teacher, Bill often learned things the night before he taught a class. He could surely learn all the business he would have to know, and from there, he learned people management skills. For two years, Bill ran a Risk Assessment Group, which evaluates the health risks (human and ecological) of Superfund sites. He currently runs and mentors a group of twelve people: PhD’s, some MA’s, and BA’s. He describes his job as being similar to running an academic department. This year, they are publishing three papers. His fundamental research is to understand what is happening at a site, and solve problems economically and creatively. He does miss the teaching, but adjunct teaching is still a possibility for him. The most valuable skills that have transferred over from academia are his problem-solving and analytical skills.

 

 

Panel Discussion

 

Darryl: The essential set of skills that we develop as scientists are problem-solving skills and the ability to “think outside the box.” You have to be broad in how you think about your skills.

 

Question: Mike, could you talk about what you do?

 

Mike: McKinsey has about 7000 consultants worldwide. This is the most coveted position for those coming out of an MBA - 50% of our consultants are MBA’s. We have practices across several industries. My specialization is in the pharmaceutical practice, which is centered in the mid-Atlantic region. I have been there for 16 months. I have had 4 engagements, 2 strategic, and 1 long-term planning. Currently, I’m doing an organization study. I have not dealt with any science problems, but my background definitely gives me an “in” when I need to talk about science. Day-to-day, I’m in meetings or planning meetings, and on the phone. I don’t do as much analysis as I would have thought. I interact with clients and internal stakeholders. I have to travel about 2 nights per week on average.

 

Question: How did you talk about your decision to leave academia with your mentors?

 

Bill: In general, I think there is an understanding if you have justifiable reasons. There is always disappointment, but your mentor should be supportive.

 

Darryl: An issue that comes up for me is – how do you keep your technical edge? I have a strong partnership with Penn, so I engage with research a lot. At some point, I think I might want to go back into research. You need to have a balance.

 

Mike: I was lucky because my mentor was supportive. I honor the fact that there are people here who think, “I train scientists.” However, I had a “humane advisor” who understood. I made it clear that the pay and lifestyle of academia would not be sufficient for me.

 

Bill: Salary is an issue. It depends on what the trade-offs are for you.

 

Mike: I can tell you that at McKinsey and other top consulting firms, salaries are much higher than in academia.

 

Question: Darryl, do you think it will be hard to go back to research after being away from it?

 

Darryl: Well, that’s why I am happy I chose to work in a science-related non-profit. For strategic reasons, I have surrounded myself by people that do research all the time. If I wait too long, it may be more difficult, but I don’t plan to be doing this for more than 3 years. You have to figure out what your interests and goals are. Ideally, I could go into consulting. I am glad I did a postdoc though; it gave me the opportunity to decide whether I really liked research. As a postdoc, you’re more independent and can get more of a sense of what being an independent researcher would be like. Starting this non-profit has given me a chance to work with people and develop the “soft skills.”

 

Question: Where do consulting companies advertise?

 

Bill: In my business, local media. Also, head-hunters are a good option. You can also connect with various firms at university career fairs. [More information about career fairs such as CareerLink and Engineering Career Awareness Day and PennLink, the Career Services job and internship database, can be found on the Career Services web site.]

 

Mike: I think your best bet is to connect with Career Services. I had less luck with biotech consulting. Places like McKinsey have programs in place to help them hire PhD’s. They have training programs for people with less business background.

 

Question: How do you balance work and family?

 

Bill: My boss is hands-off. As long as you get your work done there’s no problem. I have five kids now, so you just have to balance your life with work. I try not to be too stressed for time.

 

Mike: I work about 65 – 75 hours a week. Honestly, I have to say, I worked just as many hours as a grad student. We work 15 – 16 hours, Monday through Thursday, work a regular Friday, and have weekends off. It would be tough on a family, since I’m away two nights per week. McKinsey is notorious for their hours, but then we get four weeks of vacation. Sometimes we get an extra week for a bonus, or a few extra days of vacation.

 

Questions: Mike, what would you do if you had kids?

 

Mike: I’m not sure, but I do have colleagues that balance it. As you move up at McKinsey and gain tenure, you have more control over your schedule.

 

Question: Which is more stressful: doing research or work?

 

Mike: The big difference is the pace of success and failure, which is determined by hours, rather than years.

 

Bill: Research feels more long-term.

 

Darryl: In the business world, you have to worry more about your relationships. There are different politics.

 

Bill: Yes, thinking about the people that I supervise keeps me up at night!

 

Question: If you’re thinking about consulting as a PhD, should you do a postdoc?

 

Darryl: Yes, for industrial positions, it would help more if you have more independent research experience.

 

Mike: At McKinsey, there is no difference between a PhD and a postdoc; a postdoc doesn’t matter at all, they have the same compensation package as a PhD.

 

Bill: In environmental consulting, a postdoc is not essential.

 

Question: How did you find out about your company?

 

Darryl: I met someone from the Science Center, from the Osiris group.

 

Bill: My first job was with a boutique consulting firm (a small firm). Once you’re hired, you find out about companies through networking and you find out who’s happy and where.

 

Question: Did you think about other career paths?

 

Mike: I still consider other careers. Consulting was really my focus, though. I’m not sure what my next step will be.

 

Bill: I thought about biostatistics, but I didn’t have the level of background needed for a big pharma. I also thought about the clinical research side of big pharma, but a Ph.D. doesn’t mean as much in the context of clinical trials. I would have had to work my way up from the bottom, as a clinical research assistant. I do have a colleague who went that route, but that just wasn’t what I wanted to do.

 

Question: How important was networking in your job search?

 

Darryl: You need to get your foot in the door. Networking and sending out resumes work hand in hand. You do need certain social skills, these do play an essential role.

 

Bill: Your success is determined by your ability to communicate. There will always be a networking element and a chance element.

 

Question: What are salaries like in a non-profit, for example in curriculum development?

 

Darryl: NSF and the National Academies hire in this field. I’m not exactly sure what the salaries would be. There are fellowships from the Department of Energy and Research Policy. The AAAS would also be a good opportunity.

 

Bill: We just hired a PhD and he had done that AAAS fellowship. [The AAAS Science and Technology Fellowship http://fellowships.aaas.org/.]

 

Question: Aside from the pay, were you passionate about your research?

 

Bill: Yes, I was. I miss the research and the teaching. I am also passionate about what I do now, though.

 

Darryl: I guess I haven’t been away from it long enough to miss it. I really like my position now, but I miss the cutting-edge nature of doing research. I see what I’m doing as a stepping-stone to something else.

 

Mike: Of course, my research was more interesting, but I don’t miss the pipetting. The commitment of time studying science is more interesting, but I felt like not enough people cared about my work. Now, the work I do on a daily basis can affect thousands of
people.

 

Question: Do you interact with more people now?

 

All: Yes!

Bill: I deal with a wider array of people.

 

Question: What are the advantages and/or disadvantages that you have at your job, compared to your colleagues?

 

Bill: I had to learn how to budget, do payroll, bonuses, and finance. I do have these intangible skills: the ability to analyze, problem-solve, and math skills.

 

Question: How do you market yourself? I think people perceive bench scientists as being very narrowly focused, and not having transferable skills.

 

Darryl: Again, social skills are very important.

 

Bill: You have to let them know that you are a very capable person, and that you bring a lot to the table. You may need to realign yourself to fit a company. Focus on those transferable skills: critical thinking, problem-solving, etc.

 

Question: Did you feel insecure about leaving academia?

 

Darryl: I think insecurities drive you to do a better job.

 

Mike: I had no business training, and I was afraid that the McKinsey training would not be enough. There are specific skills (budgeting, finance, etc.) that you learn by doing – they aren’t that tricky.

 

Bill: I was more insecure when I was at Penn, but I felt more secure by the time that I left. The same thing has happened to me at my current job.

 

Question: Did you have a diverse research or employment background?

 

Mike: Not necessarily in my research, but in my life.

 

Bill: My research was specific, but that didn’t matter. It comes back to those acquired transferable skills.